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Freethought
Association of West Michigan
Meeting Minutes for July 23, 2003; #143
Topic:
The Philosophy of Vedanta
Dr. Collins
led the meeting and moderated during the discussion period following
the topic presentation. Dr. Forbes had set up a sign and boxes
for book donations in preparation for our first Freethought Book
Sale on August 27. Members are encouraged to bring in books for
this fundraiser that is a good way to spend little money to acquire
many recommended books of interest.
We were reminded
that our group is completely funded by the freewill donations
of attending members. Our rent, speaker fees (including travel
for out of town/state special guest speakers), mailing and equipment
costs and other expenses depend on our membership's financial
commitment to our future. Also, checks can be made out to the
Freethought Association and are tax deductible, since we are a
501 © (3) non-profit organization.
David Cleveland
made arrangements and reservations for a new venue for our post-meeting
gathering space for social interaction, libations and eats. We
had been going to Kurley's Korner on Michigan Street. This meeting
was our first time as a group, going to Vitale's Italian Restaurant
on Leonard (the same street our meeting place-the Yankee Clipper
Library-is on), going toward downtown, past Fuller, on the corner
of Leonard and Emerald. It provided good accommodations, in a
more pleasant atmosphere and a good time was had after the meeting
for those who gathered there.
August 13
is our next Board Meeting and is open to interested members. These
are held at our usual meeting place and on regular meeting days
but at 5:30PM, prior to the topic presentation meeting time of
7PM.
Our meeting topic for that day, August 13, will be "WWJD:
Debunking Popular Myths About Jesus" and will be presented
by Jeremy Crow, FAoWM member.
The topic
for our Book Sale date, August 27, will be "Richard Dawkins-
The Devil's Chaplain", presented by Dr. Carl Bajema, Professor
Of Evolutionary Biology and FAoWM member.
For questions
or suggestions, links to other related sites, book recommendations,
archives of past meeting minutes, or to get on our e-mail discussion
list (run jointly by FAoWM and the GLHS) and much more, check
our website: www.freethoughtassociation.org or info@freethoughtassociation.org.
Our topic
for this meeting was "The Philosophy of Vedanta" presented
primarily by Renu Malhotra, with introductory remarks and a brief
overview by Fred Stella. Stella has a public radio program, "Common
Threads" that is aired on Sunday mornings, featuring a discussion
on topics from different faith groups, and he is president of
the Interfaith Dialogue Association. Malhotra is a native of India
and is guru trained in Vedanta and has taught for several years
in this area, is Chairperson for "See the World" and
has worked to make improvements in many villages in India. She
also facilitates classes at Fountain Street Church, among her
other activities.
In Stella's
presentation to us, he started off with some autobiographical
notes. He was born and raised in a traditional American Roman
Catholic family but had a powerful experience when he was fifteen
years of age, when he was first exposed to Hindu Dharma. Everything
about it- the pageantry, exotic nature, and even the food that
he partook of then, was exciting and felt "right" to
him. As for the Indian cuisine, he quoted a sign that said "Come
for the Enlightenment; Stay for the Food." When he was first
talking about this experience, it sounded like an epiphany or
major life-changing event, but he later spoke of it in terms of
how comfortable it was for him-how natural he felt in that setting.
The actual journey in becoming an American Vedantist took years
of interested study. He initially, still attended Catholic Mass
and remained faithful to the religious traditions of his family-
even after becoming quite fully immersed in the new-to-him teachings
that he was absorbing. He was pleased to discover that The Hindus
were not only non-dogmatic as to their own religious faith and
expression but had no problem in others learning of their ways
while still being involved in different religious affiliations.
As he delved
deeper into Vedanta, the philosophy and specific aspects became
more significant, including the ancient, sacred writing; Sanskrit.
But it was the objective of seeking out Absolute Consciousness
and the transcendence that appealed to him the most. Stella gave
a glowing introduction to Renu Malhotra, who began her portion
of the presentation with a prayer, an unusual activity for speakers
to our group. She explained that this was a humbling exercise
and both grounded her in her place, time and setting as well as
spoke to a higher source of reality for her. This was questioned
later and addressed by her.
Vedanta, the
Hindu philosophy based upon the Upanishads, especially in its
monastic form, literally means, she explained, the end of the
Vedas, or most ancient of the Hindu scriptures. Ved= knowledge
and "anta" means the end. She asserted that it is doctrine,
not dogma that is of concern to the Vedantist. Malhotra also said
that the "ist" suffix is not regarded by Hindus but
is thought of as the essence (or dharma) of the practice in question.
The teachings include reincarnation, a sense of the soul and absolute
consciousness. There is no proselytizing, no witnessing, or public
declarations of faith in this tradition. No one is compelled to
believe anything; there is no litmus test for acceptance. This
recalls to this secretary the rabbi who spoke to us about how
it is acts that matter more than belief in Judaism. Christianity
centers so much more on strength of credulous faith and belief
in central tenets and one true path only, by contrast. The Hindu
is on his/her own spiritual quest and one is accepted at whatever
stage of the journey s/he is on in that search. Evangelizing is
considered a sin in this philosophy, which is considered a teaching,
rather than a sermonizing tradition.
The rituals,
prayer and codes of this philosophical arm are there to assist
the seeker in discovering (by his/her own lights) his/her relationship
with the Universe. The universe and everything in it can be traced
back to a "manifestor" as she termed Brahma, which is
the supreme divine reality in Hinduism. She maintained that the
"Creator" is seen more as a manifestor in her tradition.
It is not a male God sitting on a throne in the clouds, handing
out rewards and punishments and does not create outside Itself.
It is in all of creation and all of what is manifest is of It.
It is the all- pervasive source and essence of everything.
She then went
into an explanation of the "knower/ known" relationship
and what we can know by having it in front of us and by what can
be held in one's head. She stressed that the subject can never
been the object and vise versa. Objectification destroys the subject.
Many religious organizations, she said, exist for the benefit
(and service) of themselves, not the individual. Know who is the
knower, she recommended. Know yourself, in other words. Getting
into the soul concepts, she asked who is the "I" that
is aware of the thoughts and emotions. Renu made the analogy of
the brain being like the processing unit of a computer, but not
the real true self. She also gave us the analogy of the "drone"
in music-the constant sound that abides throughout all other aspects
of the soundscape. Everything corresponds to the drone, and in
this way she explained how all the rituals relate to the essence
(Vedanta), which she termed "the Truth." For those in
attendance brought up in a Christian tradition, hearing someone
of a faith tradition talking about having "the Truth"
is a little unsettling. One had to keep reminding oneself that
this was not a tradition that breeds or inspires fulminating preachers
foreseeing a future of paradise for the believer or eternal torment
for the infidel. In this regard she said "What is there to
proselytize about?" The truth just is, there is no conversion
necessary or sensible for it. What is right for one may not be
right for another and one is not to disturb the mindset of another
in this philosophy. She asserted that it was spiritualism that
was more important than religiosity. It is not where you came
from, how much you pray, your education, etc. that matters.
The Ultimate
reality just IS, she stated. In explaining how everything is connected,
she made a visual aid of a spiral and showing how everything is
in and on that ever- rippling out form. But Malhotra said that
the view she was presenting to us teaches one to appreciate the
differences-in each other, and in all the parts of the whole.
We are all mere specks in the ultimate reality but we are all
in and of it.
She told of
how much misunderstanding she encountered when she first arrived
here in western Michigan. When she said she was Indian, she was
asked "What tribe?" for instance. It was also believed
by many she encountered that Hindus worshipped a numerous but
set batch of deities. Three- hundred and thirty- three, was one
number that came up. Malhotra said that the Hindu does not see
separate gods, but part of the ultimate consciousness in everyone-there
is no way of numbering this concept that takes in the entirety
of creation. She spoke of how a garment is made and took us on
a reductionist journey through the process of the materials coming
into being and gathering of them and so on and that the garment
was fabricated from all the processes that took in everything,
the earth that the material grew in, or where the metals for a
needle, for instance, was mined from, the air that the wool-bearing
creature breathed, the water it drank, the animal itself, and
so on…but ultimately it was all blended by a consciousness
for the end result and that consciousness pervades it all.
The concept
of the Ultimate consciousness as god cannot be limited. God minus
anything equals a limited god. She equated it to trying to extract
a billion of something out of infinity. Infinity cannot be added
to or subtracted from. As alluded to earlier, this view does not
see woman made from a man's rib, man made from dust/dirt-the materials
do not exist outside of the god.
Hindus practice
the do not hate the doer, hate the deed concept familiar to Christians.
It is not a violent tradition. Rather than preaching, the mentor
has to be invited to speak to the interested person/people and
is in the role of a teacher. Seeing god in all makes it difficult
to seek the destruction of others. Our presenter said that they
do not go quite as far as the Buddhists-they will fight back if
fought and strive to maintain their culture and traditions by
stronger force if met by strong attack. Ultimately they seek to
know the knower, to be the knower and to be at peace and not live
in fear.
In speaking
of karma, she explained that it means action and gave the rather
Newtonian example of reactions deriving from actions. Every action
has consequences and one is responsible for one's own actions.
Another simple shape she drew to demonstrate this idea was the
circle. She showed how everything could be thought of as being
a point on that circle but how everything is actually part of
it. The actions at one point affect all other points-all is interconnected.
There are no discrete starting and stopping points to this concept.
There is no Calvinistic predestination in this religious philosophy:
one can amend behavior and alter one's destiny-one is responsible
for one's own destiny and can fix things along the way, affecting
karma.
"We do
not pray for God," she said. God does not need our praise.
We can not add to It-since it is manifest fullness. Pray for the
self to become closer to the fullness…with everything interconnected,
all is affected, including karma through this prayerful ritual.
Because it is a teaching tradition, Vedanta holds that the wisdom
needs to be imparted, not just through a self- study system. She
spoke of inferential beliefs and how the teachings can be questioned
and explored-it is not a blind faith tradition, she asserted.
Its goals are not for getting to a predicted paradise but how
to live life daily with one another and understand the underlying
essences of all.
As to the
"essence" of things, she spoke of how one cannot imagine
a cold flame, because its essence is heat. Likewise it is redundant
to speak of a sweet sugar, since its essence is understood as
sweet. Though this secretary shakes his head over the too oft-heard
"tuna fish"-as if there were, say, tuna bear or something…For
the human, Renu maintained, the essence is spiritual.
Malhotra sympathized
with the atheist's rejection of the god s/he was given in other
faiths-the Big Guy in the sky meting out harsh punishments and
turning a blind eye to pain, suffering, the child dying of cancer
at age 4, etc. This is not the sort of supreme being the atheist
can see sense in praying to…and if it is all-powerful, knowing,
etc., how are we to influence Its behavior? She said, in this
regard that the divinity resides in ourselves and the responsibility
to change things for the good is ours. We can never understand
all the details…she gave us the analogy of the forest that
we can never hope to fully integrate into our awareness, but maybe
we can, through dint of strong effort, perceive the single tree
quite thoroughly.
Another word
painting she provided was that of the wave in the ocean. The waves
are all different from each other and countless. If the single
wave knew of itself-its essence- it would know it is water, not
a "big" wave, "oily" wave, "warm"
wave, and so on. That wave is connected inextricably to the ocean
via its essentialness of being water and even though it can discern
its differences, it can see deeper into what makes it all one
absolute essential reality. She did another regression at this
point in her talk where she said that the podium she stood behind
is wood. Yes, but it can be thought of as "tree" and
the process bringing it to its state and the fibers, and growth
and down further and further to its atomic structure and particles,
energy fields…but all coming ultimately from a singularity.
The Absolute Reality. What can be called God (or Brahman). When
FAoWM member Steve Anderson gave his talk to us on Buddhism, he
gave us a similar mental journey, using a sheet of paper as the
example.
In the Q&A
portion of the meeting, Malhotra was asked again about her prayer
that she commenced her talk with. Besides the humbling aspect
of it, she spoke of how there is a certain grace that she was
there at that time, unimpeded by the countless slings and arrows
and misfortunes that one may encounter-allowing her to speak to
us. She prayed for comprehension on our part. She also commented
later on this subject that prayer is like talking to another where
you gain strength by sharing your thoughts but the strength actually
comes from within yourself and that is where change is actuated.
The wave is part of the all- strength ocean. In acknowledging
the within/without aspects of reality she summed it up in a pithy
way by saying that sometimes she liked to taste the sugar; sometimes
she liked to be the sugar. She explained in response to another
querie that Vedanta is about understanding. The rituals use what
is known as a tool, in the way that physicists use universal laws
to make predictions and test hypothesis.
She remarked
on the caste system. She did not see it as an essentially wrong
system, but it had been corrupted. One's own temperament or inclination
is what brought one to be in a particular caste. Sometimes different
people express different caste manifestations when undertaking
differing tasks. It was asked if we are all one, how can we imprison
a criminal without imprisoning ourselves. We are different at
the social level and ignorance can be the essence of some…ignorance
bringing pain and suffering. And, again, she had spoken of the
responsibility for one's own actions that lies in the heart of
this system. She said, also that one must approach life from a
sense of calm, strength and without fear.
We discussed
the role played by the indigenous aspects of religions. How much
of what is practiced is inherent in the culture and how much can
be exported elsewhere as a universal set of doctrines? She addressed
this and also reiterated how there is a difference in Hindu thought
dealing in a cyclic, rather than linear view. Idols can be fashioned
but then let go. There is nothing to spread or disagree upon-like
gravity-it just is. She talked of the cultural disturbances and
havoc wreaked through missionaries going to India without having
the 1000's of years together that the regions cultures had shared.
Renu Malhotra
left us with the interesting comment that there are no worries
with Vedanta. After all, "we'll be back."
Secretary:
Charles LaRue
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