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Freethought
Association of West Michigan
Meeting Minutes for March 13, 2002; #110
This meeting
marked the first use of a recently- procured wireless microphone
for announcements and presentations.
There was
a reminder of the fee associated with the library use for our
meetings and that donations are therefore appreciated.
We were also
reminded that our meeting space in the Yankee Clipper Library
is available for pre-meeting discussions @ 6PM. Those interested
in leading or participating in this are welcome to do so.
Our annual
FAOWM board meeting will be held at Don Hansen's residence on
March 31 at 10AM. All are welcome. For directions or further information,
call (616) 662-9326.
Our next scheduled
meeting topic is: "Skeptics Bible Study" to be presented
by Walt VanDam on March 27 at 7PM. This was changed just prior
to the meeting; see next minutes for more detail.
Mark your
calendars to attend "Perspectives on Evolution & Creation;
Implications for Science, Religion & Faith", April 4th
at 7PM on the GVSU Allendale campus; Kirkhof Center, Grand River
Room. Sponsored by the Campus Bible Fellowship of GVSU. The discussion
will be between Dr. Gregory Forbes, FAOWM member and Professor
of Zoology, GRCC and Dr. Michael Pape, Professor of Biochemistry,
U.of MI. The latter presenter takes a Creationist approach to
the topic and there will be an open Q & A time at the conclusion
of their talks. There will be a social time following at the Afterwards
Café, across from the water tower.
Dr. Forbes
will also present "Distinguishing Religions & Cults"
on April 10 at 7PM in our regular meeting place.
Our newly
updated topic and event list is posted on our website. The address
is shown above along with other contact information.
Jeff Seaver's
wife, Catherine, distributed a questionnaire to our group, surveying
responses on questions of mental health and happiness levels in
relation to the level of religious beliefs held.
This meeting
was the first to have two presenters on two separate topics in
the same evening. Ray Sadowski, retired from Spectrum Health,
presented "Numbers", followed by one of our group's
founding members, Don Hansen, who presented the topic "Are
Ghosts for Real?"
Ray's talk
centered on the biblical record as it related to tallies and other
numerical accounts of things, noting that the Jews, in the past
and present, were consummate reporters and writers. Because his
presentation was sprinkled liberally with large numbers, difficult
to hold in one's head, Ray was assisted by a young woman named
Stacey, who wrote out the pertinent figures on a large presentation
pad.
Sadowski was
brought up in a religious home and was given to understand that
reading the Bible was essential to proper growth and moral development.
So as a young person, he did just that. Besides the staggering
record of cruelties, debauchery, sexism and other horrifying accounts
to be found in the "Good Book"- often originating with
, or ordered by the "God of Love"- he came upon a relentless
tedium of "begats" and the order of kings and their
periods on the throne and the counting and recounting of people,
events and things. The biblical "Numbers" itself is
so titled, in large part, for its account of God ordering Moses
to count and count again those peopling the 12 tribes of Israel.
As with many brought up in theistic, believing, homes but who
had a skeptical mind, Ray began to see- as he read- the huge volume
of self-contradictions and numerical impossibilities contained
in the Bible. At the very least, many had to be embellishments
or exaggerations…yet wasn't this supposed to be a sacred
record of the Word of an infallible God? Sadowski was well on
his way to becoming a freethinker.
In recognizing
the mythogenic aspects of the Bible, one has to keep in mind that
most of the populace was illiterate and depended upon the few-the
rabbis and early priesthood-who interpreted to them what this
small literate class wished to have received. What was received
was believed. These interpreters were the mouthpieces of God on
Earth and there was no opposing scholarship to counter their control
and absolute authority. This state of affairs was taken full advantage
of by those who had, wrote, re-wrote, compiled and disseminated
the so-called Word of God. Nor was there any scientific understanding
of the world, to provide an alternative viewpoint. It becomes
understandable, then, how so many could believe that five linear
miles of water covered the entire face of the Earth, people lived
to be 900 years of age, God-directed "she- bears" ripped
apart children who made note of Elijah's bald pate, that two of
every organism on Earth were gathered together in an arc, that,
at different times an ass, a burning bush, a rock and a snake
all spoke perfect Hebrew, that "everything that breathed"
of the Pharaoh's was utterly annihilated and not just once(!),
when he refused to show compassion to the Jews after God "hardened
his heart" making it rather unlikely that he would relent!
Although God
seemed to like having people counted at times, in other cases
it was seen as wrong-headed. David ordered the counting of Israelites,
which displeased God, so that It (God) made David choose between
three horrible curses. David, however, soon prepares to built
an audacious temple to honor and glorify God. Getting on in years,
his son Solomon takes over the actual construction. This entails
sending 10,000 men per month, for several months, to Lebanon to
harvest the timbers, 70,000 carriers, 80,000 stone- cutters and
3,300 overseers. In all, it is recorded that it took 7 years and
53,000 men to actually build the temple to impress God. This does
not take into account the temple guards or other officials necessary
to maintain and defend it and the mining, delivering and installation
of gold, silver, bronze, iron, onyx, turquoise, and other colored
stones, precious gems and marble to adorn this project. Of David's
own personal collection, some 120 tons of his finest gold and
over 250 tons of silver were used. Other donations to this work
included 200 more tons of gold, 380 tons of silver, 700 tons of
bronze, 3,750 tons of iron. To commemorate this monumental achievement
there was a staggering slaughter of animals for the God who loved
the "sweet aroma" of burnt meat. Ray's presentation
included 22,000 oxen and 120,000 sheep sacrificed for 7 days.
The enormity of this head-spinning mass slaughter creates a grisly
image of continual killing, skinning, gutting, burning gathering
of wood, tending of fires-a people awash in gore and carnage;
smoke, bone, blood and guts. This celebration massed some 600,000
men in front of the temple. Ray gave an analogy of populations
we were more familiar with to illustrate just what this would
look like and it became clear how stupendously exaggerated this
number must be.
Ray next turned
to the 430- year enslavement of the Israelites in Egypt and the
eventual exodus of the liberated Jews, causing them to embark
on a 40 year journey across the desert. The appellation "wandering"
is generally attached to this glut of humanity in their trek and
Sadowski made apparent how correct this concept of aimless meandering
is. He said that it works out to their covering a modest 5 miles
per year or only 72 feet each day! He noted that the Egyptians
were also good record keepers but this entire event is not to
be found in their accounts. He further remarked that archeologists
are able to locate evidence for two to three shepherds from ancient
times, what they ate, etc., but how, ironically, there is not
a whiff of evidence for this mammoth group's journey over a course
of 40 years time. God gave his chosen people "manna"
to eat on their walk to the Promised Land, though what sort of
substance this was is not made clear. There was another item on
their menu previously provided to this manna- care package, however.
Quail. When the people grew hungry, God, in Its overkill fashion,
arranged for these fowl to come in from the "sea" (even
though this is not their habitat) and to fall around the wanderers
to a level of 3 feet deep, a day's journey out, in all directions!
Again, Ray had us visualize this mind-numbing concept of feathers
plucked, guts and inedible parts removed, singeing of flesh and
just being stymied in a sea of dead, rotting birds. He figured
this to be about 29,000,000,000,000 (twenty-nine trillion) quail;
enough to fill 40 million railroad cars…or enough to go around
the Earth at the equator 14 times.
Ray spoke
of the story of David & Goliath. David is said to have slain
a 9' giant wearing 156 pounds of protective mail and a weighty
spear, with a stone from a slingshot. This incredible feat impressed
the people greatly, but Saul- the recipient of the severed giant's
head, grew angry over David's recognition but offered him his
daughter after he completed a certain task. He had David go out
to the Philistines to gather 100 foreskins (a piece of male anatomy
God was very obsessed with), though David, being the legendary
giant slayer, doubled this quantity, killing 200 Philistines and
removing the foreskins of each, then schlepping these across hot
dusty terrain without refrigeration to present to Saul.
Ray also spoke
of the numerous battles where God delivered into the hands of
Its people numbers so great as to total, collectively, more humans
than even existed on Earth during those times. He added how the
Bible often directs that everything that breathes be totally wiped
out, with the exception of virgin women to be raped by the God-directed
conquerors, of babies heads bashed against walls, and pregnant
women's bellies be torn apart by the "omnibenevolent"
One's armies and followers.
Ray gave a
litany of translations of the Bible that have appeared, some of
which were reworked to make the content more palatable. But, he
noted, the conflicting and self-contradictory versions abide,
and were these removed this "greatest story ever told"
would be a very slim book. He ended his at times humorous and
at times horrifying talk by giving a few modern examples of incomprehensible
numbers-including our US budget for certain endeavors as well
as ways to visualize otherwise incomprehensible numbers, such
as a "trillion." Here are a few others from the book
"How Much is a Million" by David M. Schwartz. "If
one million kids climbed onto one another's shoulders, they would
be…farther up than airplanes can fly." A billion such
arranged children would reach "…up past the moon."
"If you wanted to count from one to one million it would
take you about 23 days." For a billion, you would be counting
"…for 95 years." A goldfish bowl large enough to
contain a billion goldfish would have to be as large as a stadium.
If a book with pages that were 9" x 11" were filled
with one billion tiny, asterisk sized, stars-"…its pages
spread side by side would stretch almost ten miles." For
a trillion children all atop each others' shoulders they would
extend into space "…almost as far as Saturn's rings."
The goldfish bowl would now be as big as a city harbor (for a
trillion goldfish) and the trillion tiny stars in rows on a page
would have pages going from…"New York to New Zealand."
Don Hansen
presented the next topic, "Are Ghosts for Real?" He
is, like Ray, retired but volunteers at an elementary school and
is very involved and active with our group, which he co-founded.
He began by saying that he had never seen a ghost but became interested
in the subject when a Methodist minister he knew, who was a missionary
and expert in world religions, went to a séance to communicate
with his dead wife again. The minister paid and had his experience,
including his forehead touched supposedly by the spirit of his
deceased wife. When Don asked if he believed the experience had
been valid, he said he was not convinced. His "wife"
had said things that were too pat and predictable for credibility.
But Don's interest was sparked and he began collecting ghost stories
for a few years.
Later, Don
was working in hospital administration where he was told by an
employee (payroll clerk and accountant) of an experience where
a blonde, female ghost visited her boy's bedroom at night, with
3 or 4 shadows accompanying this apparition on her trek up the
stairs of the payroll clerk's apparently haunted house. Her husband
had experienced this ethereal phenomenon as well. These people
were serious minded; an accountant and engineer respectively,
Methodists, and living in Bismarck, North Dakota. In addition
to the couple, a friend at a gathering of school kids, asked when
the son of this couple had started going out with a blonde (the
boy had been dating a brunette), as he seemed to have witnessed
this ghost "haunting" the house.
Another story
Don related was that of his wife's mother who died of cancer in
a hospital. On one side of her was a daughter-in-law and on the
other side- an attending nurse. Upon "passing" the nurse
exclaimed, "Did you see that?" She had reportedly seen
some sort of misty essence emerge from the deceased woman's body.
Again, Don notes that this was a trained professional not given
to flights of fancy.
Next Hansen
turned to the stories that served as the basis for the books,
"Amityville Horror" and "The Ghost of Flight 401."
In the former, taking place on Long Island, New York, a young
man allegedly heard ghostly voices instructing him to kill. He
murdered his parents and siblings. The house where the murders
took place stood vacant for a while, but was later purchased and
those residing then reported horrible things occurring there.
Later, however, another family moved in and there were no further
reports of hauntings or bizarre events transpiring. There was
no direct, non-anecdotal evidence for their having been a spiritual
presence and the story has since, Don said, been discounted. Everything
that could be critically examined had disproved the claims made.
The "Flight
401" story involved an Eastern Airlines flight in '72 departing
from JFK airport, heading to Miami, FL. A landing gear malfunction
and attempts to correct the problem during the flight caused it
to crash with 99 people dying, including the pilot and co-pilot,
and 77 surviving. Parts of the plane had been salvaged and reports
started to emerge, so the story goes, of the pilots showing up,
(in uniform and seen as three-dimensional forms) aboard aircraft
that had parts taken from Flight 401. One report even had a pilot
sit down in first class, appearing ill, but not responding to
those talking to him-then with this putative "ghost"
disappearing. Another report came out of a pilot and two attendants
at JFK, speaking with another pilot who similarly disappeared.
The corporeal airline workers were so distraught by the experience
that they cancelled the flight. In another case, an attendant
talked to a pilot seated in the "jump seat" of the aircraft,
asking if he intended to fly. Then, according to the story, after
getting no response from the pilot, the attendant recognized him
as the deceased pilot of 401. Still other accounts were given
by professional airline workers who received "good advice"
from the phantom pilot, including warnings of an impending fire
and hydraulics problems.
Hansen made
the distinction between what is meant by the term "ghost"
as contrasted to "poltergeist." The former are seen
and believed to be spirits of the dead. The latter are not seen
and move objects around in a house where a young adolescent female
resides. Poltergeists are not considered spirits but rather some
sort of mind over matter phenomena related to the biological activities
of a pubescent girl.
Don talked
about the prevalence of ghost sightings throughout history and
even in our own Heritage Hill area of Grand Rapids. He mentioned
that not every member of the same given family is able to see
the ghosts that others in the family claim to see. It was noted
that most sightings are in houses and one belief for this is that
houses may store up the energy of those living in them for years
and then are later manifested as ghosts. The energy form "sticks
to what it knows"-the domicile. Another belief pertaining
to ghosts is that they are lost spirits of the departed. Those
adhering to this idea say that ghosts are most often seen when
someone dies suddenly and/or traumatically and this leaves behind
an entity that does not truly understand that it is dead. Some
"ghost busters" simply inform the spirit being that
it is in the wrong realm, has died, and needs to go on now. Ghosts,
Hansen explained, are also seen by some as memories of those who
knew us.
Don then went
to the scientific response to claims of ghosts and haunted places.
The general consensus in the scientific community is that there
are no ghosts but that we are conditioned to believe in them in
childhood when we are susceptible to belief in such ideas (and
have no other counterbalancing rational, critical thinking skills
in place). There are "…no haunted houses, only haunted
people." Scientists point out that the claims are generally
anecdotal and how flawed "eyewitness accounts" are apt
to be. Furthermore, this area of "research" does not
fit into anything that can be detected in nature or by any scientific
method. It isn't something that can be measured, tested or repeated
in the lab or by employing the tools or techniques of scientific
investigation " in the field", so to say. Researchers
from supposedly scientific organizations have gone hi-tech. in
their search for ghosts but so far have turned up no credible
evidence of such with their apparatus. These organizations tend
to contain "psychic" or "psychical" in their
organizational names, which of course is a whole other area with
virtually no credible scientific data to support it. There are
groups that go about debunking claims of hauntings but that are
open to the existence of ghosts being valid in some cases.
Hansen went
on to talk about hypnogogic and hypnopopic sensations and the
broad term of "night terrors." The type of response
to hallucinations, that can bring into play all five senses, and
brings with it a trapped, paralyzed feeling and seeing other presences,
has been related to UFO abduction cases in addition to visions
of ghosts.
Don spoke
of the different approaches to considering ghosts. Some, who belief
in the paranormal, see it as simply another aspect to life; another
way to reflect upon consciousness. Many people adhere to belief
in ghosts as a way of finding hope for an afterlife. For these
people it may give credence for them in the existence of God.
Don, who is
no longer religious, does not believe in ghosts in a truly supernatural
way, but holds open the possibility that there may be parts of
nature, employing some energy source that appear to some people
as what have come to be called "ghosts."
One person
in the group remarked how, if ghosts were real manifestations
of tragic deaths, then the locations where the former Nazi death
camps once stood should be fraught with ghosts of the exterminated.
Another asked, "What ever happened to the talk about auras?"
We talked about other pseudoscientific ideas that have waxed and
waned over time. There was discussion about how people see what
their upbringing conditions them to perceive. People with differing
religious backgrounds have visions that go along with their religion's
specific imagery when they have "near death experiences"
and this seems to be the case with many ghost sightings as well.
A serious problem for one member was the lack of consensus in
what ghosts are, how they behave, how they look, if they are benevolent,
playful, harmful, lost and morose or gleeful. In the past, just
a cold spot in the house (generally large, un-insulated and drafty
to begin with) were believed to be ghosts. In movie depictions
one will not only find a vast and disparate array of "species"
of ghosts, but often even in the same movie there will be unconnected,
unrelated versions of them. One would think there would be a greater
degree of shared experience with all the claims of sightings over
centuries of time. We talked about how some events are over-interpreted
and that too many people have no understanding of chance and probability
and are unversed in critical thinking skills. Parapsychology groups,
it was mentioned, often mine the data for what they want to find,
use poor statistics and shirk the correct procedures for conducting
unbiased research. One person stated how we are able to see only
a small part of the light spectrum, hear only a fraction of the
existing sound wavelengths, etc., so there is more out there than
we can know. But, of course, we have devices that allow us to
make those jumps beyond what we are able to perceive, unaided
and scientists routinely work with what cannot directly be observed
but are detected by how they affect what can be observed and tested.
Ghosts, so far, haven't "materialized" in any of these
instances. And if they did-would they then still be "ghosts?"
Secretary:
Charles LaRue
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