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Freethought
Association of West Michigan
Meeting Minutes for April 4, 2002, #112
“Perspectives
on Evolution and Creation: Implications for Science, Religion
and Faith.”
GVSU, Kirkhof
Center, Grand River Room. Sponsored by Campus Bible Fellowship.
Dr. Gregory
Forbes, Professor of Zoology, GRCC.
Dr. Michael
Pape, Professor of Biochemistry, U of M.
Dr. Forbes
was introduced first. Besides his professorship he is also on
the editorial board of Skeptic magazine. He received his education
at California Polytechnic and Cook University in Australia, and
owns an expedition company.
Along with
a slide presentation, Dr. Forbes said that evolution affects the
lives of us all. Science and religion are two ways of knowing.
In response to his question of where we get our beliefs, he said
that 53% of the population does not know what creationism means.
He described five categories of beliefs.
1. We get
some or our beliefs from innate beliefs, or from gut feelings.
2. Revelation or epiphanies might provide beliefs.
3. Some might come from mysticism or the paranormal.
4. Some are based on an assumed authority of a person or authority:
dogmatism.
5. Finally, empiricism: knowledge through experience and trial
is the only category based on science. The first 4 listed are
not science.
Dr. Forbes
posed the question and gave answers to: “Why do we believe?”
1. Many are
comfortable with antiquity, and having faith in something that
has existed for a long time. But this is not totally reliable;
even Aristotle was wrong when he said objects fall according to
mass.
2. We might have confidence in the age of a professor or church.
3. We like to deal with a degree of acceptance; we prefer to be
on the “bandwagon”. Once it was believed that computers
were too large to fit into a building. The theory was proven wrong,
as were subsequent theories regarding the size of computers.
4. Some people are stimulated with motivation and ability to explore
alternatives. Opposite this is the plea: “Tell us the answer”.
“Thinking is too hard”. We too often want to take the
lesser route.
Dr. Forbes
described two errors in our belief systems.
l. Accepting a falsehood.
2. Rejecting a truth.
In dealing with gaps in knowledge, we are likely to inappropriately
accept false alternatives. We can call that the ‘God of the
Gaps’. When things can’t be explained, we attribute
the mystery to God. But something unexplained does not mean it
is inexplicable. There is nothing wrong with not knowing. The
nature of knowing comes through philosophy, religion, and science,
with science the only system that provides proof.
As to why
religion is so common, it serves as a purpose for what comes next,
such as afterlife. It serves as a moral guide, and it offers explanations
of the natural world. This is the opposite of science, as science
does not deal with morality or the afterlife.
Comparisons
between Science and Religion can be summed up this way:
Science Religion
Guided by natural laws. Interventions by the supernatural.
Testable Not testable
Conclusions await additional information Conclusions are final
and rigid.
Is potentially falsifiable. Not testable.
Asks questions. Provides answers.
Dr. Forbes
displayed a slide showing the progression of evolutionary theories
starting with the Flat Earth Society, and proceeding upwards to
Geocentrists, Young Earth, Old Earth, Gap Creation, Day Age, Progressive,
Intelligent, Evolution Creationists, Theistic Evolutionists, Agnostic
Evolutionists, and finally the Material Evolutionists, represented
by author and scientist Richard Dawkins, who states there is no
God which goes beyond science.
.To further
illustrate how evolution is denigrated, Dr. Forbes displayed the
Evolution Tree put out by the Pittsburgh Creation Society, indicating
widespread breakdown of law and order. Evolution is shown to cause
such “evils” as humanism, inflation, hard rock, abortion,
sex education, mother/child liberation, etc.
Surveys show
that 90% of people claim to be religious. 96% believe in God.
Despite these figures, 83% want evolution taught. Evolution runs
through all aspects of our lives. Of all scientists who ever lived,
90% are alive today. Dr. Forbes ended his presentation by saying
that acceptance of evolution does not mean rejecting religion.
Darwin did not reject religion. Theism is not really required
for morality.
Dr. Pape spoke
next. His education was obtained at Univ. of Michigan and Purdue.
He has published articles on health and has been associated with
biological, biochemistry pharmaceutical research firms. He is
co-pastor of New Life Church in Ann Arbor.
Dr. Pape said
our existence is similar to that of coming into a movie 20 minutes
late, or debating tonight’s topic is like coming into it
20 minutes late. Dealing with our origins, we need to ask where
did I come from, and what is my purpose?
The Big Bang
cosmology is presumed to have taken place 12 to 15 billion years
ago. Time and space had to have a beginning. One has to wonder
what was the state before the Big Bang. If something exists now,
it has always existed. In dealing with the question, “What
has always existed?” Dr. Pape said it is Matter or Naturalism,
OR God and Theism.
Perhaps a
core consideration is, “Why is there something? What was
before the Big Bang?” Science may be able to answer the how,
but not the why. God is one explanation for why. Naturalism is
actually a creation story. The creation story is admittedly a
myth, but science cannot get at myths. Whereas naturalism is a
chance-derived view, the theistic view is God directed . With
biological origins, life comes from non-life. With theistic origins
life comes from an intelligent being, or life comes from life.
To further our understanding, it is a ‘mechanism’ that
we are talking about.
Dr. Pape indicated
that he is not surprised that changes occur all of the time. But
can higher life come from lesser forms? With the natural view,
a creator cannot be invoked. Human origins are unpredictable,
unsupervised, and undirected. It is best described as chance-derived.
Under the
theistic view, order prevails; it can stand over nature. With
the naturalistic view, it is like having both feet in the air.
Evolution is self-defeating, purposeless, and not goal directed.
Dr. Pape used the gloomy example of journalist Albert Camus, whose
writings comment bitterly on the absurdity of life, quoting Camus’s
well-known statement that the only truly serious philosophical
problem is suicide. Humanist-agnostic-atheist Carl Sagan, when
on his death bed admitted to had to do some serious soul searching
before he accepted a bone marrow transplant.
Dr. Pape provided
some examples of contemporary human tragedies, the people of which
could fine solace only through theism. He found this especially
pertinent in dealing with sexually abused women, and his being
able to cope with the death of his sister of cancer at an early
age.
Because of
equipment malfunction, Dr. Pape was unable to show a film clip,
which featured a mythical God becoming “a fork in the road.”
Dr. Pape ended by saying that in the end it comes down to the
idea that “Humans created God” or “God created
humans”.
Question and
Answer Session
One attendee
asked if an ‘intelligent designer’ could be an agnostic
and Dr. Forbes said it would not be likely. Dr. Forbes went on
to say that some ‘intelligent designer’ bills have been
introduced in the Michigan legislature that would clearly violate
the separation of church and state.
Another person
wondered why God would consider death good, since fossils show
that they had suffered from dread diseases.
As to the
Big Bang theory, one wondered why it is necessary to believe that
there has to be something before the Big Bang. Possibly it is
an illusion, or it is self created. It is like existing and not
existing at the same time.
It was noted
that 60% of scientists say they are theists.
Regarding
the missing links in the fossil world, Dr. Forbes said there have
been hundreds of millions of species in existence. To date there
is a record of 25% of those fossils.
In response
to an example by Dr. Pape that rapists likely come from a non-theistic
background, one attendee said a theist, even a clergy person who
strayed could say that the devil made them do it, which is an
attempt to shift the blame. The same person said he was not in
agreement with Carol Sagan’s belittling consciousness, as
chimps for instance, have learned to strip away poisonous parts
of a plant, yet get nutrition from other parts of the same plant.
Dr. Pape was
asked if he allowed divine intervention to explain his work. He
replied no because science does have laws. The three requirements
a scientist must deal with are laws of non-contradiction, laws
of causality, and reliability of senses.
Dr. Pape was
asked if humans evolve. He replied that he did not know. It depends
upon the matter of authority. He has chosen the authority of the
Bible. Dr. Forbes added that it is important to know what ‘mechanism’
is selected for information. Finally Dr. Pape was asked how one
puts DNA into the creation perspective. As a biologist and biochemist
he knows that all creatures have the same DNA.
Don Hansen,
Recorder
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