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Freethought
Association of West Michigan
Meeting Minutes for March 28, 2001; #88
General: Those who so choose, gather at One Trick Pony, corner
of Fulton & Lagrave, for post-meeting social time. As a reminder,
we validate parking passes with our stamper that we pass around,
for those who park in the Ellis lot across the street from the
Calkins Science Center where we meet. Feel free to suggest a topic,
volunteer to assist in any way with projects, or ideas, or in
moderating a discussion. Let Jeff know about any speakers you
are able to line up or would like to hear. Visit us on the web:
www.freethoughtassociation.org for all the above or to receive
a membership directory, get on our discussion list, receive minutes
or other pertinent e-mails.
We are continuing with the currently used format for meetings,
re: discussion length, division of moderator and presenter and
how group members are recognized in the discussion period.
Our bulletin had the rest of the year topic line-up, though some
are tentative at this time. The next 5 topics/presenters or events
are as follows:
Ø APRIL 11, 7PM: "Is Alcoholism a Disease?" presented
by Jill Pinkerton.
Ø APRIL 25, 7PM: "Are There Objective Human Values?
Human Hope vs. Randian Logic as an Answer to Relativism"
presented by Professor Joseph Ellin.
Ø APRIL 28, 10AM: Adopt-A-Highway program, organized by
Dennis Murphy. Meet @ AAA office on Plainfield just north of 5
Mile. We could use your help to make it go faster and more pleasantly
and we go out for a meal afterwards.
Ø MAY 9, 7PM: "Determinism vs. Free Will: How Will,
Choice & Liberty are Consistent with Determinism" presented
by William Merriman.
Ø MAY 23, 7PM: "Gun Control" presented by Dennis
Murphy.
Charles lined up a summer picnic site and date for our group.
It will be June 16 (Saturday), at the Fallasburg Park in Lowell,
at an open shelter from about 10AM until 5PM. For more info contact
me (Charles): calart@hotmail.com. Also please contact me with
any newspaper addresses and contact people for getting info on
our group out into those paper's Events Calendars. Grand Rapids
is sufficiently covered, so I'm mostly looking for outlying area
papers. Thank you.
Dave, who is also on the Media Committee, presented information
on a number of resources for non-profit groups, training opportunities
for operating camera and studio equipment for televised presentations,
and other pertinent contacts. We are looking for people who would
be willing to put in the time and talent to get the word out on
our group to radio and tv sources. Let us know what you would
be willing and able to do. David also mentioned getting T-shirts
printed up with our group name, for those inetersted.
Dr. Greg Forbes, in his role as director for the Michigan Evolution
Education Initiative, gave us up-to-the-moment review of where
things stand regarding the anti-evolution bill HB 4382. He also
gave us papers MSEEI Evolution News (see evolutionnews-gforbes@grcc.cc.mi.us
for the complete text and more info.), the National Science Teachers
Association position statement and the State Board of Education
Resolution regarding the teaching of religion and creationism
in public schools.
Jeff brought us up to speed on matters pertaining to our incorporated
status and other items discussed at our business meeting, the
Wednesday before this one. Minutes are available from that meeting.
He also informed us that authors Dan Barker and Robert Pennock
are both expected to give presentations this calendar year. Barker
will likely give a talk related to his book "Losing Faith
in Faith" and Pennock will discuss the tactics of the new
creationism. He is the author of "The Tower of Babel"
regarding the evolution- creationism debate.
Dennis volunteered to create a survey for our group that will
give us a clearer picture of our group's make-up and interests,
which will help guide future topic selection in addition to other
benefits.
Our topic for this meeting was presented by Marshall Grate, a
local attorney, history buff and long-time FAOWM member. He based
his presentation on the Jared Diamond book "Guns, Germs &
Steel, the Fates of Human Societies," which traces the disparate
developments of various world cultures over time and gives plausible
explanations for why some groups advanced and conquered and others
were subsumed or left in what would be considered by many moderns,
a "backward" state of existence/ subsistence.
Marshall began by providing disclaimers, including his lack of
education in certain specific areas or disciplines of study and
that this presentation may not be deemed "politically correct"
or encouraging for the resolved pacifist. Essentially, he focused
on the primary question that was posited in Diamond's book, asked
by native New Guinean, Yali, as to why the foreigners had all
the "cargo" (or goods) when they came as outsiders to
Yali's culture. Marshall expanded on this to focus on the remarkable
success that Western Civilization has had in basically dominating
virtually every other group it encountered, the pervasiveness
of English, the European influence, etc. He put it in a nutshell
by saying that every society that Western Culture had encountered
had to do one of two things; "adapt or die."
Diamond wove a densely researched and cogently argued account
of the reasons for this imbalance based mostly, directly or indirectly,
on the resources, climate geography that different groups inhabited.
He begins with how the continents moved and the direct molding
of Polynesian island groups via geographical happenstances and
early collisions between groups that had different starts in life
due to the above factors. He then launches into the roots of guns,
germs and steel, dealing with what large mammals were available
that were able to be domesticated, what agriculture could be or
was precluded from being naturally developed, if farming techniques
could be implemented, and the division of labor that comes from
farming methods (based on these geographical settings) that gave
some groups the ability to develop specialized tools and talents.
Diamond contends that the geographical "haves" were
able to have increased populations supported by the increased
food supply, and diversity of skills, including a warrior group,
artisans, scribes and even a political structure dealing with
disbursement, allocation of duties and power, etc. Coupled with
the ability to create and maintain better weaponry (guns, steel)
and having horses to ride into battle on, this made for an almost
unstoppable force against those whose hunter-gatherer ways (egalitarian,
limited roles and simpler social/political structure, and lacking
in agricultural and domesticated animal resources) were ill-prepared
to stand against. Diamond also writes about how those peoples
who spent the most time with livestock (which also gave a greater
availability of ready protein sources, in addition to being put
to use as draft animals), developed immunities to the germs that
come with close contact with these animals. This germ component
of Diamond's thesis is borne out by historical record where as
much as 95% of some groups were killed off by the introduction
and spread of foreign diseases from outsiders before any battle
had even taken place. Marshall also pointed out how smaller groups
(as seen in non-farming societies) break up more into divisive
tribes, even having a multitude of separate languages, which makes
conquest easier and impedes the spread of innovation.
Grate, who is well-versed in history, gave many examples from
his own studies of how these events unfolded along the lines that
Diamond outlines. He took pains to point out that this might did
not necessarily translate into right and that along with the vast
advantages of the civilizations that came to dominate, also came
larger problems. And, regarding invention, he highlighted Diamond's
observations that oftentimes innovative "solutions"
were in search of a "problem." Not all peoples desired
the "cargo" they observed other peoples having (nor
would their lifestyle fit for them) and not even all groups that
were at the same technological level adopted inventions without
resistance. Some societies turned inward, as seen with China,
for instance, limiting exchange of ideas and innovation.
Another item touched upon were how the different axes of landmasses
affected the spread of agriculture and ideas; often this is an
East-West impediment contrasted with a North-South relative ease
of spread. We also discussed the artificial selection pressures
human societies brought about for making plants edible. Many were
toxic or simply low in nutritional value. Seed stores from these
modified plants were able to be introduced to other lands along
with the conquering groups and their horses and livestock. Marshall
brought up how the Plains Indians are always represented by their
"horse culture" but that this was introduced to them
by Europeans.
Thoughts were presented by group attendees regarding innate capabilities
of different people, religion's role in impeding progress (the
Koran, for instance, was not allowed to be printed), "Manifest
Destiny", judging all groups by Western Civilization's Standards
and other ideas in support or challenge to the presented material.
Secretary: Charles LaRue
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