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Freethought
Association of West Michigan
Meeting Minutes for June 27, 2001, #94
Ex-minister
now spreads the 'good news' about his atheism
Grand
Rapids Press, July 7, 2001
Neal
Dionne Show with guest Dan Barker on WOOD Radio 1300AM, 6/25/01
47:15 run time barker.mp3
(Caution: 11.3mb download)
The
Dan Barker presentation at the Calkins Science Center of the Grand
Rapids Community College; downtown campus auditorium.
Dan Barker, the former evangelist and Christian music composer,
currently of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, was the featured
speaker for this night. The title of his presentation was "Losing
Faith in Faith" which is also the title of one of his books;
both dealing with his evolution from the ministry to becoming
a freethinker. He was accompanied by his wife of 14 years, Annie
Laurie Gaylor, editor of the FFRF magazine "Freethought Today"
and author of "Women Without Superstition" and one of
their children, Sabrina. He spoke additionally to the Great Lakes
Humanists Society in Mt. Pleasant, MI, where he also displayed
his musical talents.
Jeff Seaver gave an overview of the Freethought Association, that
he heads up for the auditorium audience, and announced Mr. Barker,
gleaning insights from both public information and numerous private
contacts made in getting this event to become a reality.
Barker's presentation was a delicious mix of humor, profound insights,
shared feelings and concise, yet complete explorations into concepts
that require entire books for most others to say anything of significance
about. He fed us a steady diet of pearls, tossed off easily, but
did not glut his audience with any unnecessary frills in his plain-
spoken presentation. Among the many tight phrases were: "Distracted
by reality," "Intolerance and ignorance coupled with
cash" (as a definition of religion), "Eternal life is
cheap" (regarding the preciousness of the sole life non-theists
know they have, compared with an eternal reward in the hereafter
hoped for by the believer), "Faith doesn't falsify"
(as to the distinction between science and religion), "We
all disbelieve in the same God," and a wealth of other bon
mots.
Barker is working on another book, as yet untitled, about other
clergy who have "left the fold;" their commonalities,
backgrounds and reasons for making such a profound life change.
As with the others in this book, Dan was a complete, True Believer.
His palpable faith was genuine, his need to proselytize bubbling
up from very real emotions, his prayers going to the literal Living
God, and his adherence to the Christian teachings unwavering.
In that time, he simply could not countenance a lukewarm faith;
it had to run hot or cold, life was black and white, there were
no gray areas or complications to require Christian apologetics.
It was not enough to believe, Barker had to be a "doer of
'The Word.'" He employed his considerable musical abilities
to create many Christian musicals, songs and other productions.
Two from his output were "Mary Had a Little Lamb" (dealing
with the Christmas story; the birth of the "Lamb of God")
and "His Fleece Was White as Snow" (regarding the Easter
tale). Of these, Dan said that he still enjoys the music in them
but is embarrassed over the words.
His biographical account told of his birth into the "right
family, at the right time in history, having the right religion
to have The Truth…" His family went to church ALL the
time, in addition to in-home revival meetings, Bible studies,
prayer groups, involvement in musical programs, and house- to-
house ministry. He felt called to this mission at age 15 and planned
on dedicating his life to Jesus. His Spanish teacher credited
him with his conversion to Born Again Christian status. Barker
stated that he never felt oppressed by his Fundamentalist upbringing
as he followed his calling; preaching, traveling, opposing the
sins of regular citizens and the Supreme Court alike in his zeal.
There was no "wiggle room" in his convictions. What
was wrong was wrong, what was right was righteous. And it worked!
He genuinely experienced the washing away of his sins, the love,
peace and joy in his being and the communion with the Holy Spirit.
Today, as a nonbeliever, he regards others' experiences when they
"speak in tongues," roll around in ecstasy or other
such pure and emotional displays as completely honest outpourings.
Where he differs with the believer is in the source. He claims
he can still go into such a state of fervor, working himself up
to the same degree, but realizing this comes from within-neurology,
not spirituality; the complex workings of billions of neurons,
each with thousands of connections in his skull, not some spirit
from beyond.
He believed in prayer and saw its confirmation, only later employing
critical thinking skills to realize that we tend to remember and
enshrine the "hits" but forget the "misses."
His lack of understanding then of neutrality; his true/false-
either with me or against me mindset was a comfort to him-after
all he had all the pat answers. But he learned that it was the
vast "gray areas that drives our quest for knowledge."
He not only was innocent of critical thinking then, but so too
were his flock. He would tell them what they wanted to hear, or
things that seemed prophetic that could apply to virtually anyone.
People got easy answers and were uncritical of his witnessing
and preaching, figuring "It's religion, so it's got to be
good, right?"
Barker attended a Christian College which he dubbed a "glorified
Sunday School" and his ministry only increased, finding himself
the associate pastor at three different churches, performing Christian
music, evangelizing and otherwise continuously immersed in the
cause of winning souls for Jesus in the allotted time before the
End Times he believed were fast upon us. Of his youth work in
"deepest darkest Mexico" he was later, upon reflection,
amused to think that he was actively converting his listeners
from one type of Christianity to another. He found that if he
simply said something about Mary, the Holy Mother of God, then
everything would be okay there.
He soon linked up with the number three Christian publisher in
the country, feeling then that the timing for him to slide into
this opportunity was Providential. He did guest conducting and
continued to spread the Word via music and preaching.
In his travels to other congregations he eventually found himself
among those who did not share his literalist interpretation of
Scripture and even out and out doubters, not to mention the many
"lukewarm" Christians. It was an amazing encounter for
him. There were actually seemingly good people who didn't hate
homosexuality, or who didn't believe in a literal Hell, or the
miraculous acts of Jesus. Learning of this variety of belief started
him on his way to his "leap of un-faith." Especially
remarkable for him was his first meeting with an atheist in a
church (due to the fact that his wife dragged him there under
the false pretenses of something other than an actual church service
that would happening). He was prepared to come face to face with
Satan's henchman, but discovered a kind, giving, gentle man who
simply did not share the theology of the churchmen and women.
Once he began to question the tenets he was brought up with, he
found himself with a profound intellectual thirst and began devouring
books and seizing upon other ideas. The reading he had done up
to that point consisted of the Bible and writings from uncontroversial
Christian authors. There was a decidedly huge gap in his knowledge
that he hungered to fill. He listed a number of influential writings,
but one that he highlighted was the Humanist author Corliss Lamont
and his "Illusions of Immortality."
As he began to cast the nets of inquiry further, quest deeper
and see in ever widening concentric circles, his pangs of doubt
grew along with his profound sense of hypocrisy. He continued
in the only work he had known and performed since adolescence
but no longer believed the words he preached. Barker talked about
not being a believer any more to his Christian music publisher,
saying he could not finish the half-completed piece he had been
working on. The publisher encouraged him to complete it anyway.
He also became aware of the metaphorical quality to the scriptures.
One of the examples Dan gave was of Jesus saying he was "the
door" but of course not literally intending a hinged portal.
If the Bible made use of symbolism, metaphor, and allegory in
the many instances he was suddenly finding, then maybe that was
the sensible way to interpret the entire tome. God Itself could
actually be a figure of speech! He was also beginning to question
the all-good Bible god that smote so easily and ordered hideous
massacres, made odious demands, and, as an all-wise being, had
to resort to horrific curses and slaughter rather than reason
and intellect. When his devout mother also began to de-convert,
one of the things that Barker, the son, said to her was "Mom,
you're just so much nicer than God." Later, when she had
journeyed into her state of liberation from religion, she said:
"It is so nice to have to hate anymore."
He spoke of the variety of belief and unbelief, running the gamut
from unshakeable faith to atheism in his own family, which resonated
with many in the audience. One brother seems to see his Christianity
as "Let's see how much sin I can do and still get to heaven."
Of his own parents' reaction to his departure from theism, he
told of the heart-felt letter he had sent out to friends and family
after he had become solidly non-theistic, and how they accepted
him, knowing that he wouldn't make such a radical change thoughtlessly
or recklessly. He had to have deep reasons. At no time did Barker
attempt to change the views of any he wrote or spoke to then;
he was simply explaining himself. He thinks he may have planted
the seed, but his parents' own evolution was entirely from their
own effort and choice. Barker talked of how the feedback received
from his letter really showed him who his true friends were. Some
abandoned him, others abided, even while maintaining their religious
beliefs.
Eventually, Barker's reading and pondering led him to regard all
things as explainable via natural processes. Where there was not
yet a plausible explanation, this did not require one to look
outside of the natural laws or realm. He had railed against the
evils of evolution or other scientific understandings. Now he
needed to actually learn about the issues he had before demonized.
As his knowledge of the natural working of the world increased,
he simply had an ever- decreasing need to apply the magical thinking
of supernatural beliefs. As an example of his new found state
of mind, he said that people go to doctors because they are sick.
People go to religion because they are wretches seeking salvation.
He didn't regard himself as sick or a wretch. He saw, before he
made the firm split from his religious work, how believers still
saw him as a vessel for the Lord; the Holy Spirit yet flowed through
him in their eyes. He realized how easy it is for people to flock
to a preacher of The Word, even when the presenter no longer believes
or feels the concepts. But after his transition into freethought,
he would use his insights and abilities without hypocrisy. He
began to champion the use of reason over blind faith, strong state/
church separation, liberation of the mind, equality of the sexes
and freedom of choice in personal matters without bowing to authoritative
decrees or dogma. He found the vessel for his gifts in the Freedom
From Religion Foundation. This group spearheads a number of legal
challenges to unconstitutional schemes to mix public secular programs
and institutions with any particular religious agenda, promotes
the rights of groups often discriminated against due to religious
doctrines and other issues of concern. Dan mentioned a number
of the current items in the works through the FFRF and numerous
legal victories they've enjoyed. He also mentioned some bumper
stickers and slogans from the group, including Margaret Sanger's
motto: "No gods, no masters" and "The Pope is fallible,
the Earth is fillable; protect the Earth." This latter one
was removed from Barker's vehicle rather violently, probably by
someone doing "the Lord's work." The organization's
website is: www.ffrf.org. Look for information on the Madison,
Wisconsin conference in September by the FFRF.
The rest of the time was filled with the former evangelist fielding
a wide range of questions from the audience. He treated all questions
thoroughly and thoughtfully, no matter the bias. He was asked
about Unitarians and quipped that there was a lot of variety in
the UU churches but the one constant was the coffeepot; almost
a symbol of reverence itself. This led to talk of what churches
provide, including a sense of community where like-minded people
can gather socially. While religious groups provide assistance
to individuals seeking help, he saw no improvement in what they
offer over secular programs and individual good works, whether
religiously motivated or not. As to AA, he said that this might
be thought of as "replacing one dependency with another."
Other questions led him into more talk about transcendence, and
the zone one can get into when everything falls together just
right in a creative act. He felt this with a Jazz combo he was
part of, sometimes. But to attribute this to a deity working through
him would be like saying "If you've never played in a Jazz
band, you can't be saved." There are an infinite number of
ways to tap into this state and atheists enjoy it as well as devout
theists.
When asked if he missed the awe, wonder and mystery of his religious
upbringing he replied that he went through a brief grieving period
over his "loss" of religion, especially since all his
contacts, previous activities and so on revolved around his ministry.
But since then he found infinitely more mystery, awe and wonder
through science, nature, and contemplation of a staggeringly immense
universe. The old myths simply fail to stack up against the realities
of the unspeakable bounty provided by the journey of discovery
that can be made by the free mind, thinking and exploring for
itself.
Asked about what fuels conversions to religion from a non-theistic
former worldview, he said it was need and fear; fear of death
or loss of community and friendships and need to believe in the
comforting stories. Some, whom he had debated on this, didn't
seem to have a firm grasp of the Bible they were defending. Perhaps
they felt, it was best to pick and choose the verses that worked
for them, ignore the rest and not scrutinize it all too critically.
Some influential people and writings for him in his transition
were John Dewey, Bertrand Russell's "Why I Am Not A Christian,"
George Smith's "Atheism, the Case Against God" and other
science writers and philosophers. Ben Bova's article on creationism,
as it dealt with "equal time" gave him a lot to think
about. "Do the creationists really want equal time?"
he asked rhetorically. Do they truly want Darwin in the church
pulpits, natural selection propounded at Bible studies…?
This and other thoughts provided, early on, a "new lens to
see [himself] with."
Prompted by some questions, Barker crisply explained distinctions
between agnosticism, deism and atheism. The latter, he pointed
out simply referred to being "without god," not necessarily
against or having knowledge that refutes this concept. Atheists
are without a god belief for "whatever reason." Some
reasoning may be just as ill-thought- out as many freethinkers
claim the believers employ for their theism. Others come to this
state through hard work and deep thought. At one point he said
that one is never dragged into atheism; one has to really want
it. He also delineated the wide variety of ways that "God"
is defined, saying that some people may believe, as the deists
do, that a Being, Intelligence, or even impersonal creative force
started the whole process (via the Big Bang or other processes)
but essentially left the rest of the evolution of the universe
alone. But these people won't tend to fall in with the Bible-God
worshippers or adherents to any other living, currently influencing,
supernatural entity. He made mention of how most of our Founders
were deists, contrary to the Religious Right myth. He said of
them that most could be considered "Pre-Darwinian Freethinkers."
While admitting to being no expert in these matters, Barker proposed
to a question regarding altered states that many gain via spirituality,
that most of human evolution and development was in non-linear,
non-linguistic conceptualizing. More recently language subsumed
these aspects of human cognition, but we still had a long and
rich legacy of the former way of envisioning reality. In hallucinations,
dreams or spiritual conditions, perhaps these dormant mental structures
are powerfully released. They seem "other" due to our
inattention to them in normal, ordered, left-brained life. But
he returned to his conjecture that the visions did not come from
without. Barker also fielded questions regarding the "hereafter."
He quipped that sure, he believes in that. "The world will
continue after me." He contends that the only manner in which
we surely survive death is in the memory of others and in lingering
deeds. As an illustration, he said that his dad is alive. As he
spoke, perhaps his father has died. He didn't know. But if so,
all Dan's stored impressions and memories of his father abided,
unchanged whether his father yet drew breath or not. Another distinction
he made, in this Q&A portion, was between "faith and
fact." Faith, he said, lacks knowledge. It is "…admitting
that something believed cannot be held on its own merits."
He talked some about the physicists' search for the T.O.E. ("Theory
of Everything"), and that while we have not arrived at this
deep level of understanding of the innermost workings of the universe-
this gives no reason to look to supernatural agency. "All
advances made have come from the scientific method." One
person asked, if there wasn't a Being who started everything,
then what else could one replace this before-time with. He responded
by invoking the understanding of most physicists that space and
time are united. There was no space to be filled before the Big
Bang and time had not yet begun, so there is no way to inquire
after the "time before" it actually began. "What
is north of the North Pole?" "What happened before time?"
There was mention of the power of habit and its use in religion.
He was amused one time when after reading the words of the 19th
century freethought orator, Robert Ingersoll, that he said "God
bless you, Robert Ingersoll." Barker acknowledged that, due
to habit and upbringing, and evoked by stressful times, many revert
to their religious views. In a personal anecdote about a life
and death time in his own family, he found that they remained
true to their non-theism; looking to medicine, not sky hooks for
aid. There are indeed atheists in foxholes and the stories from
some theists of deathbed conversions of atheists are usually fantasy.
He talked of the rich heritage of religion in art, architecture,
music, etc. Many non-believers appreciate these without adherence
to any of the core tenets. As to Christian music, he said that
while he enjoys many of the musical compositions, he is repulsed
by the blood and harsh lyrics contained in many of them.
He defined, in response to a question, the soul, not as a spiritual
essence but as "personality." It seemed odd to him that
one can suffer traumatic brain injury and experience profound
changes in mind and personality, while still housing this incorruptible
soul that is believed to infuse these areas. The soul, he contended,
was not a "thing" but a "process." When the
process ended, so to did anything that could be properly affixed
with the appellation "soul".
The last cosmological question he was asked, regarding the miracle
of life in the universe. His reply took in the possibility of
Multiverses (multiple universes) and that we may either be the
ONE planet that has evolved complex life out of the entire universe,
making us precious but also making absurd the idea that it is
all ABOUT or FOR us-or that the universe teems with other life,
also reducing our status as the special pet of some deity to a
rather laughable level. Barker said that regardless if there were
a complex of universes or a single unimaginably vast one-the miracle
would be that there was no life to be found, not that there is
life that has evolved to this point that can create gods and ponder
its purpose.
Secretary: Charles LaRue
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