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Freethought
Association of West Michigan
Meeting Minutes for August 22, 2001, #98
Our current calendar of events and topics for the
balance of the year is as follows:
-September 12, 7PM: "Separation of Church & State,"
presented by Dirk Nebbeling. -September 15, 10AM: Adopt-A-Highway
Cleanup, organized by Dennis Murphy. Meet @ Citgo gas station
on Plainfield between E. Beltline and 5 Mile Rd. This will be
our last one of the year. Please help out if you can. -September
26, 7PM: Dr. Greg Forbes will present an as-yet undecided topic.
**OCTOBER 10, 7PM, GRCC Calkins Science Center Auditorium: "The
Tower of Babel, The Evidence Against the New Creationism,"
presented by Robert Pennock, author of the book by the same title.
-October 24, 7PM: "A Calvinist Contemplates Walking Away
from Faith," presented by Dr. Ruth Tucker, Calvin Seminary.
-November 14, 7PM: "Personal Testimonies of Leaving the Fold,"
moderated by Jeff Seaver. November 28, 7PM: "The Jewish Approach
to Living," presented by Rabbi David Krishef, Ahavas Israel.
-December 12, 7PM: Winter Solstice Party. Location to be announced.
-NO MEETING on December 26.
Our meeting topic was "Reversing Human Aging," presented
by Michael Fossel, M.D., PhD in neurobiology from Stanford; author
of the book by the same title as this meeting topic. Dr. Fossel
handed out an article he co-authored (with Eric Juengst, PhD)
that appeared in JAMA, in the "Controversies" section,
with the title: "The Ethics of Embryonic Stem Cell- Now and
Forever, Cells Without End." In it, he takes a very balanced
approach regarding this highly charged issue; keeping the very
valid ethical considerations in view, while considering in a clear-eyed
fashion, the promise and potential of this research. One interesting
point in the article, among many, is the ethical cost of omission,
where he plays out two natural scenarios-one, where a child dies
due to no effective treatment available in his time for the malady
he has. The other where he dies due to restrictions imposed upon
the therapy, disallowing treatment that is available. "If
any individual would intentionally restrict the development of
a life-saving therapy, then he/she must shoulder the responsibility
for the consequent deaths." (pg. 3181 of cited 12/27/00 article).
Regarding the subject for tonight's presentation, Dr. Fossel began
with a car analogy. If one had a car that had each part replaced
as it became worn, then eventually it would outlast its expected
duration and still run efficiently. He said this is what happens
with our cells, including DNA error repair. We are continually
being renewed. The main reason we have cell senescence, however,
is a result of shortening telomeres as cells divide. Cancer cells
are the exception to this process, due to the presence of telomerase,
which replaces segments of the telomeres, maintaining their length,
defeating cell senescence, and allowing replication. Dr. Fossel's
research deals with extending cellular viability in this fashion,
without the detrimental side effects of cancerous cells. He explained
to us the cycle of cancer and how extending the telomeres can
break the cycle before it begins.
Fossel stated that the three ways to approach maximal life spans
are through 1) breeding, 2) caloric restriction and 3) gene alteration.
Regarding caloric restriction: it seems that this works regardless
of the source of calories and has been seen as effective in such
close relatives as rhesus monkeys. It has been shown to decrease
the onset of degenerative diseases as well. We were reminded to
consider different body types, however. A more endomorphic individual
would have a different cost-gain ratio and dietary requirements
than a "naturally thin" individual.
Dr. Fossel, interestingly a very neotenous individual himself
(looking some 15 years younger than his chronological age), caused
us to re-think common ideas about aging in his "chromosomes
to nursing homes" talk. Some multi-cellular organisms do
not show signs of aging; some don't have a lifespan for instance,
but rather a life expectancy. Some uni-cellular organisms do show
signs of aging. Our cells do not all age at the same pace. Some
of our gene expression shows continuous DNA cytoplasm over billions
of years.
Fossel works with the Sunshine Foundation which researches Hutchinson-Gilford
Syndrome (progeria), the condition where children die young of
ravaging "old age" physical disorders. We talked about
this and cloning, along with "knock-out mice" and various
techniques and outcomes in the research into aging. Fertilization
resets the telomeres, though cloned individuals have by and large
normal aging patterns. If old pattern gene expression is the starting
point, however, cloned specimens have abnormal aging. The telomerased
"knock out mice" have normal expression for a few generations
but then suffer sterility and death.
As with other scientific presenters to our group, Dr. Fossel stressed
looking for ultimate causes as opposed to proximal ones. Heart
attack was an example given. Older people have statistically more
heart conditions than younger people. It is easy to think of an
aging heart, with declining function. When investigated further,
however, we see that the heart is fairly age resistant; it is
difficult to discern a young one from an older one, but the arteries
supplying the heart may, in the older individual, have blockages.
Another good point Fossel made was that we have improved techniques
for preventing problems, instead of actually curing diseases.
In most cases, the diseases still abide, but we have taken measures
to resist falling succumbing to many of them. There is no "cure"
for aging, but we can take measures to prevent the effects of
it, including painful joints, skin that loses interdigitization,
etc. He told the story of one of his older patients who was opposed
to defying the natural order of things. She preferred to let "nature
take its course." He then asked what she did about aches
and pains and she responded about her medications. What about
her hearing loss? She has a hearing aid. Further questioning caused
her to divulge her hip replacement and other measures taken for
a longer, improved life. She soon "got' where he was going
with his questions.
We discussed the different types of cells in various organs, the
effects of aging on them and the conditions that arise as a result
of cell senescence. One surprising piece of information was that
the brain is composed mostly of glial cells; only the remaining
10% or so are actually neurons!
Dr. Fossel said that telomerizing of cells is now beyond the single
cell level in positive results. Whole tissues can now be made
to reset to a youthful state. Blood and skin cells are particularly
responsive to this process. He talked about the practical aspects
of his research, not so much the innate causes of aging but the
best intervention; not needing to look to new genes, but rather
new gene expression. "Diagnosis is a tool, not an end."
The balance of our time spent with Dr. Fossel dealt with societal
repercussions that could potentially transpire with a greatly
increased longevity and the extension of "productive years."
We explored the implications of education and work and starting
a family or a new career, what the concept of retirement would
be like, the affects on health insurance and so on. Population
increases were discussed as well as population shifts. Before,
poverty and extremely dense populations went together but perhaps
wealth (the ability to afford age reversing treatment) would shift
this population increase to "our own back door." We
looked at how common ratios now would become skewed with a significantly
longer- lived population. One item mentioned was the shift in
the break even point in the costly training of an individual as
it relates to the number of productive years that individual will
generate revenue resulting from that training. What about the
stock market? What would it do to the strategies of risk takers,
long- term investors, the use of venture capital?
Attrition of ideas and even grudges was brought up. People who
were at war with one another now age and die off with coming generations
more detached from the animosity, but the same people who were
at odds with each other may still be continuing on in robust fashion
for decades to come. Ideas that are no longer fruitful, but championed
by strong-willed and influential individuals would be less likely
to be consigned to the status of old curiosities.
Perceived injustices would no longer be evened out death and lack
of vitality. Someone who has low status as opposed to others could
feel the sting of the disparity far longer and with no relief
in sight.
The entire perception of age and aging would be thrown out. Would
people in this scenario not be taken seriously until they are
60? Would families be seen as a detriment? Would the parent be
more like an older sibling? What would the longer cultural turning
radius affects be? Fossel made a quote about older people gaining
wisdom (as seen from by them not engaging in as much wild behavior)…or
is it just that they are tired? Would we see octogenarians driving
around at break neck speeds while drunk? What would this do to
sentencing for crimes? A twenty to 30 year stint might be a nice
time to have free to devote to study for someone who has double
our current lifespan. And, it was asked, what happens when we
no longer can readily discern the person of many years from the
chronologically young? Finally, regarding the concept of thwarting
"God's Will," Dr. Fossel gave a litany of interventions
that we instinctively know to be just, including resuscitating
a 5 year old, breast cancer treatment for a 40 year old, and corrective
treatment for a heart condition of a 55 year old. Certain impairments
and diseases are seen with different age brackets most commonly.
Should we view those conditions that affect the aged now the most
to be sacrosanct? If we fight against debilitating conditions
in earlier years now, why would we balk at defeating arteriosclerosis
and the suite of degenerative conditions that are now more prevalent
in older people. He deemed this thinking (the naturalness of dysfunction
as one ages) to be too selective in the application of treatment
for diseases. He impressed upon us that the research into treatments
for specific diseases is not directly "anti-aging" but
that it has as a side benefit life and health extension.
Secretary: Charles LaRue
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